Hi Johnny,

Thank you for your comments. But I think you are jumping the gun. Most of your remarks concern the conclusion of Dr. Bruce. But I did not bring up his book to use his methods or conclusions. I suggested we use it as a common online depository of the evidence, so that I would not have to rewrite pages upon pages of evidence citations. That volume has the vast majority of evidence we will use cited in it. I left it to you to decide on the methodology we should use. We cannot talk about conclusions, if we don’t have a methodology in front of us that can lead us to them or away from them.

So, once again, what objective historical criteria should we use?

Regards,

Round 3 - From Johnny

Hi Brady,

As you know, one of your gurus J. P. Moreland wrote a highly touted book (by Christians) titled 'Scaling the Secular City.' I have a copy of it. Since you keep asking me how we should agree upon debate methodology, I will list the titles of Moreland's chapters, actually postulates, in 'Scaling the Secular City.' 1 - The Cosmological Argument, 2 - The Design Argument, 3 - God and the Argument from Mind, 4 - God and the Meaning of Life, 5 - The historicity of the New Testament, 6 - The Resurrection of Jesus, 7 - Science and Christianity, and 8 - Four Final Issues. It is chapter 5 that I am most interested in. Its subheadings are titled 1- General Tests for Historicity, 2 - The Presence of Eyewitnesses, 3 - The Gospels and Jewish Oral Tradition, 4 - Marks of Historicity, and 5 - The Time Factor. In chapter 5 and throughout the rest of his book, Moreland chose his methodology, or his criteria, without consulting any skeptics in advance. He simply stated his case as he wished to state it. On the first page of chapter five, Moreland offers the following outline:

General Tests for Historicity

The Presence of Eyewitnesses

   Arguments Supporting Eyewitness Influence

   Three Objections to Eyewitness Influence

The Gospels and Jewish Oral Tradition

Marks of Historicity in the Gospel Materials

   The Form of Jesus' Sayings

   Other Distinctive Features of Jesus' Sayings

   The Presence of Irrelevant Material

   The Lack of Relevant Material

   Counterproductive Features

The Time Factor

   The Expansion of Christianity

   Paul's Letters

      General Dating

      Creeds and Hymns

      Galations 1 and 2

      1 Corinthians 16:22

      1 Corinthians 15:3-8

   The Gospels

   The Historical Jesus of radical Critics

   The Speeches in Acts 1-12

Since J. P. Moreland is much better known than F. F. Bruce, and since Christian apologists William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler and Dallas Willard, University of Southern California, offer high praise of Moreland's 'Scaling the Secular City' on the back cover of the book, I would rather use chapter 5 of 'Scaling the Secular City' as the methodological criteria for our debate than some of F. F. Bruce's writings.

Regarding the following, Moreland has done our homework (choosing a proper methodological criteria) for us regarding establishing reliable tests for evaluating the historicity of the Gospel materials:  

Marks of Historicity in the Gospel Materials

   The Form of Jesus' Sayings

   Other Distinctive Features of Jesus' Sayings

   The Presence of Irrelevant Material

   The Lack of Relevant Material

   Counterproductive Features

Will you agree to use Moreland's approach in chapter 5 as the methodological criteria for our debate? I don't know of a better approach. As far as Christian apologetics is concerned, Moreland is as good as it gets.

I look forward to your reply

Sincerely,

Johnny Skeptic